Name: Why Small Farmers Are Disappearing | Joel Salatin
Uploaded: 2025-11-04T17:32:00.000Z
Description: Family farms in America are slowly disappearing, with a 2022 USDA census reporting that America lost 142,000 farms over just five years. The average farmer in America is now nearly 60 years old.

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[RUSH TRANSCRIPT BELOW]  Family farms in America are slowly disappearing, with a 2022 USDA census reporting that America lost 142,000 farms over just five years. The average farmer in America is now nearly 60 years old.
But it’s not government subsidies that farmers need to stay afloat, says Joel Salatin. What small farmers really need is the freedom to innovate and sell directly to local consumers—without facing a morass of red tape, regulations, and mandates.

Salatin, co-owner of Polyface Farms in Virginia, is widely recognized as a leading pioneer of sustainable or regenerative farming practices that enrich the land, rather than depleting it.

Over the last half century, Salatin has seen his fair share of what he calls the “food police.” He discovered it was illegal to sell a couple dozen homemade pot pies at the farmers’ market without proving he had a certified $50,000 septic system; illegal to process his own meat without sending it to a licensed butcher; illegal for his 17-year-old apprentices to operate a cordless drill—even though they were legally allowed to drive a car; and illegal to build housing without a permit on his farm—an agricultural zone—for his highly popular farmer apprenticeship program.

The result? Small farmers have to fight for survival, factory farming wins, and America is less healthy, he says.

“In my lifetime I have watched this erosion of farmer access to retail dollars. Meanwhile, we’re seeing farmers go out of business hand over fist,” Salatin says.

What America really needs is a “Food Emancipation Proclamation,” he says.

Salatin is the author of 17 books, including “Everything I Want to Do Is Illegal: War Stories from the Local Food Front.”

Views expressed in this video are opinions of the host and the guest, and do not necessarily reflect the views of NTD.

RUSH TRANSCRIPT
Jan Jekielek:

Joel Salatin, it’s so good to have you on American Thought Leaders.

It’s a privilege and an honor to be with you, Jan.

We’re here in your milieu. We’re here at Polyface Farm. So let’s see some of the really interesting things you’ve tried to do here at the farm.

Sure, let’s take a little tour. Isn’t this a wonderful venue?

Yes, look at these guys. They are really beautiful animals. And they’re really in good shape, it’s very clear.

Yes, no grain whatsoever.

This grass is all they need. This is like the ultimate grass-fed.

Yes, it’s the ultimate grass-fed. That’s exactly right. That’s what you call happy turkeys right there. Turkeys actually eat about three times as much grass as a chicken. And because of that, they need way more grit. So this group of turkeys is eating 50 pounds of rocks a day for their gizzard.

We have pans of rocks in there. It’s called grit. But it’s big. It’s the size of a marble. They’re big pieces of rocks. And then they’re incredibly intelligent. And they’re very personable; they’re very people-oriented as opposed to chickens.

They almost look prehistoric, don’t they? I call them pterodactyls, they’re like the prehistoric pterodactyl bird. They’ll clean every piece of green vegetation here that there is. It really does look like it’s been mowed. These are unvaccinated, unmedicated, no pharmaceuticals, no, no wormers, no grubicides, no Ractopamine, none of that. Do you notice there’s no flies? There’s no smell.

I would say it’s a pleasant smell. It’s a whole different pig world.

Everything’s eating and being eaten. I mean, a compost pile is all about life, death, decomposition, regeneration. Everything’s being consumed by something else and then essentially regenerating in some other form. What makes the sacrifice of the pig sacred is the respect and honor bestowed during life. That framework, that ethical moral framework hangs on starting to honor the least of these, the animals, the plants, and honoring them to create a moral ethical framework.

It’s our relationship with the natural world that will translate into our relationship with each other.

Exactly. And so is it any wonder that a society that now factory farms their animals, commodifies and disrespects life in a factory farm, will also disrespect the individual desires of a person? So yes, it’s very, very similar.

And just watching what happened over the last, you kind of are getting a feeling that we kind of went wrong. And unless we start correcting that, we’re going to have a lot of problems.

So these guys get moved every four days. We call this the millennium feather net. The house gets moved every two days, you know, within the oval, and then the whole circle gets moved every four days. We can go in and just see how pretty the birds are. We have been hatching our own layers now for about 12 years.

These are our own genetics. We call it functional genetics. We don’t care how big you are, what color you are, anything. All we care is are you old, are you healthy, are you productive? We’ve been selecting those now for about 12 years, and these are the offspring of that selection process, and they’re pretty good-looking animals.

This is early in the morning, so they’re just beginning to lay; there is zero smell, no flies. This is the official way to hold a chicken: you put your middle finger between their legs, right? You hold them like this; that way if they want to scratch, they’re just out in the air. People hold them up here like this, then they can scratch. But you hold them like this and just let their breasts sit in your hand, and they get real content.

These are the roosts. My son Daniel came up with this. When we started with this, we had a hoop house. But the problem with a hoop house is it doesn’t have any structural integrity up high, so you have to put all the bracing down at the ground. Then that becomes something that can catch a chicken, and you can trip over, that sort of thing.

So Daniel came up with this design that puts all the structural integrity up high, so you never run over a chicken and you don’t have anything to trip on. So it’s on pipe skids, and it just moves. You hook up here with a tractor to the feed buggy; this is all hooked together and it just trains in. So here are a thousand egg layers.

And apparently everything you want to be doing here is illegal.

Yes, just about, and it’s not just food regulations. It’s other things. For example, we have a sawmill. We have 700 acres of Appalachian hardwood forest. This is the valley of oak and black walnut. We can legally cut a tree and mill it into boards, but we can’t legally make it into a chair and sell it because that’s manufacturing and we’re in an agricultural zone. This prohibits manufacturing. We’d love to make chicken pot pies for our customers; you can’t do that without an inspected kitchen.

What do you have to do to get an inspected kitchen? You have to have an approved septic field. You can’t have a composting toilet; you can’t have a porta potty. Now, you’re at $50,000 to put in a certified, you know, septic system in order to have a kitchen that passes compliance so that you can make a chicken pot pie.

When we started, we used to have 15 to 16-year-old apprentices, but we can’t have somebody under age 18 running a power tool legally. Now, you can put that 16-year-old behind 3,000 pounds of steel so that they hurdle it 70 miles an hour down the interstate. That’s perfectly safe. But a cordless drill in the hand of a 16-year-old? No, that can’t work.

You just live every day wondering, what infraction did I make today or who do I have to ask permission for today? We really are just suffocated in this morass of regulatory oversight. And the bottom line is you can’t have a successful small business with big government. Big government and small business don’t go together. Big government and big business, that goes together really well. And small government and small business, that goes together really well. But big government and small business don’t go together.

Tell me what you’ve got going here and actually where you started. I mean, because you’ve kind of become the face of this sort of small regenerative agriculture, healthy, minimal kind of external product type operation. And a lot of people gain a lot of inspiration out of that.

I’d like to go back to my grandfather, my dad’s dad. He was a charter subscriber to Rodale’s Organic Gardening and Farming magazine when it came out in1945, right there at the end of World War II. Dad was touched with this non-chemical agriculture. I’ve almost come to where I don’t want to use agriculture, or regenerative agriculture. I just say compost agriculture. But anyway, it’s okay.

Well, Dad wanted to farm. So after World War II, he was in the Navy in World War II, got discharged, went to Indiana University on the GI Bill, and got on as a bilingual accountant with Texas Oil Company in their wildcat ventures off the coast of Venezuela. And so in seven years, he was able to save enough. He got married and then was able to save enough to buy a thousand-acre farm there in the highlands of Venezuela.

He said, what do these people need? He said, what they really need is dairy and chicken. They had bananas and pineapples and stuff like that, but animal protein was really, really lacking. Since chicken is a much quicker turnaround than dairy, he said, let’s start with chicken. So we started raising chickens. In 1956, all the indigenous chickens had sub-therapeutic pneumonia. They had snot, nasal drip.

You know how those Latin American markets are; you know, the farmers come into the village square to their vending spot. And then the middlemen, they don’t, you know, at that time they didn’t have Walmart and Costco. So how did the city señora, mom, get evening dinner?

She bought it from vendors who would buy from the farmers, and one would have the bananas. And so she would have this stream of people, you know, the banana man, the papaya man, the pineapple man, the lentils man, and the bean man. Sure enough, there was enough understanding there that a dry-beaked chicken commanded a high price because they were the healthiest. So chickens were priced based on health, on lack of snot.

So Dad takes our chickens down. And within three or four months, our chickens were completely dry. Dry beak. No respiratory issues whatsoever. Very quickly, he captured literally the entire local market and, of course, all the other farmers, instead of asking him how he did this, accused us of witchcraft, voodoo, you know, all sorts of things. And so there was a lot of animosity there.

Then in 1959, when there was a junta and a revolution, what those kinds of things do is create licenses for scores to be settled that wouldn’t be settled otherwise. And so essentially, machine guns came in the back door. We fled the front door. We stayed for about eight months as Dad met with every single federal minister to try to get protection. Nothing. Can’t help you.

On Easter Sunday in 1961, we arrived back in the U.S. in Philadelphia. Dad was 39-years-old and had lost everything. And he still wanted to go back, which is why we ended up here in Virginia, Shenandoah Valley, and not out in Indiana and Ohio where their families were. He wanted to be within a three-hour drive of DC so that if things settled there and we could get back, within hours we could be at the Venezuelan embassy, get paper stamped, and back to Venezuela. But that never happened.

We looked at farms from roughly Lancaster, PA, down into the valley here, as far south as Raleigh, North Carolina, in a big arc. Then we settled here on the most worn-out, gullied rock pile. It was cheap, because it was so worn out, and we settled here in 1961. Then Dad says, okay, how do I make a living on this farm?

We had all these advisors come in, public, private, different ones. Everybody’s advice was put on chemical fertilizer, plow, plant corn, borrow money, build silos, graze the woodlot, you know, the usual, basically absolutely the usual. Dad knew that this was not the right way. He was an accountant, and so he took a job with a local accounting firm. Mom took a job at the local high school, and that paid the mortgage, and we began what I call the decade of experimentation.

We experimented with compost and portable systems. The older I got, the smarter Dad was, so he invented a portable electric fencing system. We started reading about moving animals and carbon decomposition in the soil. How do you build soil? He was also an economist, he understood that as a small farmer, we could never compete at the low-margin commodity level because we couldn’t produce enough commodities.

We had to become the middleman, the processor, the marketer, the distributor, in addition to the producer, you know, the middleman that makes all the money. We needed to wear those hats so that we could get the full retail dollar because we couldn’t turn enough pounds or widgets or bushels or whatever to compete at a low-margin volume scale.

So we began direct marketing throughout high school. I got my first chickens at age 10 from Sears and Roebuck and started selling to neighbors and people at church and a couple of restaurants and schools. By the time I was through high school, I had 300 laying hens and had a big garden and was selling produce and different things.

And so this was this entrepreneurship that was just pushed right from the beginning.

Absolutely. Right from the beginning.

So what was the neatest part of the story?

All right. So the neatest part of the story was that in Stanton,10 miles away, there was a Depression-era leftover of what was called a curb market. It was started during the Depression in the 1930s because farmers had food but no cash. People in town needed food and they had some cash. And so it was started, and goodness, through the 40s, this was like a—it was like a local Walmart.

There was everything from cake to honey, to custard, to smoked ham, to chicken, eggs, pot pie, everything. And it was all local. My wife’s grandmother, on a majestic wood stove in the 30s, would basically not sleep on Friday nights to make about 40 pies to take down to the curb market, and it literally kept them afloat. It was cash flow. And, of course, after the 50s, after the war and everything, and TV dinners and things through the 50s and 60s, it waned down to when I came in 1972, and I was a 14-year-old; it was down to two elderly matriarchs, and then I came.

Every single Saturday from age 14 to 18, I was down there every Saturday selling our stuff. I’ve always said that we were probably 15 years ahead of our time. This is the early 1970s. Organics hadn’t really become a thing yet. And when we used the word organic, people would look at you like, organic, what’s that? That’s a crazy, crazy thing.

Anyway, then when I went to college, nobody in the family was able to maintain the stand. I sold my chickens, and we shut it all down. Then shortly after that, the two ladies stopped. When I came back from college, it was no longer there.

And I’ve often wondered, what would have happened if I hadn’t gone to college and stayed and kept that open? What kind of battles would we have had? Because we were grandfathered. That curb market started in the Depression, and there was a memorandum of understanding between the food police and the extension service.

The extension service is the USDA [U. S. Dept. of Agriculture] education branch; 4-H, land-grant universities, and the extension agent in your county that helps farmers solve their problems. That’s all extension service, all educational outreach from agriculture. Of course, the food safety is over here.

They had an understanding that if a vendor was involved in any kind of extension program, the food safety police would look the other way regarding food issues because they’re getting the best of USDA education. He must be a pretty good guy. He’s not a maverick. He’s not a weirdo.

They looked the other way. So we were able to sell. The only thing that we couldn’t sell, the only thing we couldn’t sell was raw milk, but we could sell butter, yogurt, cottage cheese, home-processed beef, and home-processed pork. I could cook chicken.

You saw what it could be. You saw it and you lived it. You were like, we got to do this.

Yes, we did. And you know what’s amazing? Our prices, Jan, our prices were exactly the same as Kroger, as a supermarket. We weren’t jacking them up because it’s organic. No, because we were able to wear all those hats and do it here at home, we didn’t have to put our animals on a trailer and take them up the interstate to get them slaughtered. Guess what? We were able to compete at price with the store because it was so efficient being done here. This is one reason why, in my lifetime, I have watched this erosion of farmer access to retail dollars.

Meanwhile, we’re seeing farmers go out of business hand over fist. And the average farmer is now 60-years-old. So in the next 15 years, half of all of America’s agriculture equity is going to change hands—the land, equipment, machinery, buildings, is it all going to go to Vanguard, BlackRock, Bill Gates, and the Chinese? Who is going to do this?

Meanwhile, America has gone to a convenience food addiction. We didn’t take Michelle Obama’s garden, and know your farmer, know your food. We didn’t take that to heart as a nation. Instead, we got Lunchables, hot pockets, and squeezable Velveeta cheese. Then the industrial food complex started putting in MSG and red dye 29. It became the proverbial RFK Jr.’s ultra-processed food with ingredients that you can’t make in your kitchen.

Well, you can make a chicken pot pie without MSG. It doesn’t need MSG. You can make pickled beets without red dye 29. You can do all of this stuff—convenience food—without any of these questionable additives.

And you can do it economically. And that’s the bottom line. Absolutely. Except that this red tape comes in and knocks it out.

Yes, exactly. Suddenly, these regulatory practices and requirements make it so prohibitively capital expensive to comply with the infrastructure, the paperwork, the licenses, and the HACCP [Hazard Analysis Critical Control Point] plans to be able to sell legally that the small organization can’t get a seat at the table because you can’t justify spending half a million dollars to make a five-gallon bucket full of charcuterie.

It just doesn’t work. If you’re making tractor-trailer loads of charcuterie, a half a million dollar facility makes sense. And the pushback from the other side is, well, look, you know, if Tyson has to comply with this, or, you know, Little Debbie’s or whatever, then we need a level playing field. We need a level playing field, we need a level playing field, but y’all, we’re not playing the same game. With that kind of thinking, we could have a new mandate in the country.

All right, we love football. We love football, but you can only play it on an NFL football field. There’s no place else you can play. You have to have a certified referee and a certified field to play it on. These Sunday afternoon pickup games in the backyard where the goalposts are the clothesline and the lilac bush on one end and the five-gallon bucket and the shovel stuck in the ground on the other? No, we can’t do that. It’s going to be regulated. But the fact is, the Sunday afternoon pickup game, we’re not playing the same game. We’re not in the same deal.

And there’s another element here, and this is something that has been my own life experience watching things, right? And it’s that, you know, when you’re small, you’re accountable locally, I mean, at least that’s the way it’s been traditionally. You know, now you can do these virtual businesses and so forth, but when you’re big and you’re going all over the place, suddenly you’re kind of shielded from that local accountability, maybe even with a little bit of legal help in our unbelievably legalistic system. So it really isn’t the same game, because that accountability is the critical aspect. If you sold one bad pie or one bad chicken or whatever it was while you were with those two women, people aren’t coming back. So you’re accountable to them. You’re accountable to your community.

That’s right. Because people know exactly; they’re looking you in the eye. I mean, you go to Walmart and get something bad. Who do you tell? You can’t tell anybody, but here they know exactly who produced it, who made it, the kitchen it came out of. And it’s a direct line.

The pushback on it is also about food safety. If we allowed people to have unfettered, unregulated access to their neighbors, people would get dirty farmers and bad food and all this stuff. The fact is our hospitals right now are full of people that have been eating government-approved food.

Who are sick because of that food.

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