Name: Against the Grain: The NBA Player Who Refused to Kneel or Get the Shot | Jonathan Isaac
Uploaded: 2025-11-04T17:28:56.000Z
Description: NBA player Jonathan Isaac is known not just for his talent on the court, but for his convictions and outspoken faith. He’s the author of the 2022 best-selling memoir “Why I Stand.”

Jan Jekielek is a senior editor with The Epoch Times, host of the show “American Thought Leaders” and co-host of “FALLOUT” with Dr. Robert Malone and “Kash’s Corner” with Kash Patel. Jan’s career has spanned academia, international human rights work, and now for almost two decades, media. He has interviewed nearly a thousand thought leaders on camera, and specializes in long-form discussions challenging the grand narratives of our time. He’s also an award-winning documentary filmmaker, producing “The Unseen Crisis: Vaccine Stories You Were Never Told,” “DeSantis: Florida vs. Lockdowns,” and “Finding Manny.”

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[RUSH TRANSCRIPT BELOW] NBA player Jonathan Isaac is known not just for his talent on the court, but for his convictions and outspoken faith. He’s the author of the 2022 best-selling memoir “Why I Stand.”

As a youth, he struggled with anxiety—but a chance encounter in an elevator with the man who would later become his pastor changed the course of his life.

Faith helped him triumph over his battle with anxiety, but it also later put him at the center of a national debate. After George Floyd’s death, at the height of the Black Lives Matter movement, most NBA players chose to kneel during the national anthem. But Isaac chose to stand. Later, his decision to decline the COVID-19 vaccines also drew intense media scrutiny.

In this episode, he shares his story, his convictions, his choices and why he made them, and what it means to believe in something bigger than yourself.

Now, through his UNITUS shoe line, Isaac shares Bible verses and a message of hope.

Views expressed in this video are opinions of the host and the guest, and do not necessarily reflect the views of NTD.

RUSH TRANSCRIPT
Jan Jekielek:

Jonathan Isaac, so good to have you on American Thought Leaders.

Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. Thanks a lot.

Let’s go back a bit into the past. I’ve known about you for a while. I started reading about your background and, you know, kind of where you’ve come from. And I realized that you had a similar, I don’t know, affliction or issue that I did as a kid, and that was anxiety, something you suffered from, and you dealt with it with basketball. Tell me a little bit about those early years.

I grew up in the Bronx, New York, with my dad, my mom, four brothers, and one sister. And I would say when I was in New York, I didn’t really have that issue of anxiety or really self-consciousness about who I was, did I fit in, all those different things. I was a pretty quiet kid, but we just loved it. We were in New York, we had friends, and we would play around in the neighborhood. It was just really normal, I would say.

Then my parents ended up splitting up. Then I went from the Bronx, New York, to Naples, Florida. And that’s when really everything changed. So I went from a predominantly black and Latino community to a predominantly white community.

I think that was the first time in my life that I felt self-conscious. I remember really trying to make friends at the new school. My form of making friends was horseplay, and I’m a big kid. I was tall for all these little white kids. My form of playing around was like child endangerment to them, so I got in trouble quite a bit.

One time my mom got called to the office, and the principal was like, we can’t have your son endangering the lives of the other students. And she’s just like, he doesn’t mean it. Like, this is just, you know, how he expresses himself whatsoever. And that was the first time that I was like, oh my goodness, like, I’m not the way that I perceive myself. Like, I’m actually a danger, and I need to kind of walk on eggshells and almost fight for the approval and the love of the people around me.

And so I tried to do everything. I was a class clown. I was always trying to make jokes, just trying my best to fit in and make friends. And basketball was the thing that really opened the door to that. As I fell in love with basketball and started to get better, that’s when I started receiving validation from my peers and the girls and everything like that. But it also created in me this rollercoaster of emotions where I really wanted to play well and do well. I always felt like if I didn’t, I was going to lose that validation and affirmation from other people.

So before games, I’d be extremely anxious. That happened all through high school, the number one player in the state of Florida, in college, into the NBA. It has been an ongoing thing that I have worked through. And it has been my faith that has helped me the most with finding my identity in Christ and just being okay with who I am.

You know, something that strikes me about basketball, I mean, whatever that physicality that you were expressing as a kid that was actually getting you into trouble. Probably on the basketball court, that was like a bit of a benefit.

For sure. I kind of wish I still, because I kind of tamed that, you know, even going into basketball. So I became, you know, this very shy, you know, insecure guy, even though I was growing in talent. And so I probably, I probably wish I would have stayed in New York to play basketball for my whole life because then I would have, you know, come about a little differently.

So your process is actually becoming more out there, I guess, right? Exactly sort of, I don’t know, more aggressive.

It probably sounds a little bad. But yes, as I went through that whole process, it was more like I became very inward focused and always trying to pull back and decide on whether what I was going to say or do, how it would affect the people around me, and how would they then perceive me. Getting out of that, or working to get out of that has produced a little more natural aggressiveness, just being outward and not so inward-focused.

It’s fascinating, a parallel, you know, we have some parallel experiences that I don’t really ever talk about, you know, here we go. But so at some point, you started getting good. I think you were number one in Florida. And so, you know, at this point, you know, there’s more girls, more media now. People are starting to appreciate, maybe appreciate a little too much. You know, just kind of tell me about that process and how you reacted to it.

It was awful, you know, because it was like, it was just so, just again, that rollercoaster of emotions where I’m being recognized for this player that I am. Inside, I don’t feel like I’m a really great player, but I’m the number one player in the state of Florida. And I’m receiving this validation, and I love it. But at the same time, I don’t want to lose it. And I felt like any mistake that I would make or could make would cause people not to love me anymore and not care for me anymore. And so I was just always so nervous.

I remember having an interview in high school for the magazine, USA Basketball. I was being interviewed by a woman and she asked me a question, and I said, yes, sir, just because I was so tense and nervous and not even listening to her. And I’ve had a couple of interviews like that, and so it was difficult, you

know? It was pretty difficult growing up and trying to navigate, um, you know, becoming a really good player in basketball and the kind of internal emotional turmoil that I was going through.

I was just, I was reminded of something, you know, someone that I’ve admired for a long time and kind of follow is Denzel Washington, and he kind of, he had this, he said something like fame is a monster, right? That’s kind of something that resonated with me. Not that I’ve had to deal with a ton of fame, but how do you react to that?

I think it’s true. You know, I think as humans, it’s almost like we’re not built for it. We’re not built, and we really aren’t manufactured in that way to be receivers of praise and, you know, of praise and everybody loving you because it just messes with us about the way that we view ourselves. It’s easy to become prideful, it’s easy to become cocky or whatnot, but then you just kind of lose yourself in it. And we’ve seen a lot of celebrities and people who have experienced great fame, how it really distorts reality and causes a lot of breakdowns.

You know, of course, faith is very important to you.

Absolutely.

Right. Were you, as this fame was starting to build, were you looking for some way to deal with it, or were you kind of relishing in the fame, or was there some critical moment where you felt, okay, I have to change something?

Yes and no. I didn’t really become a Christian until I got to the NBA. But I grew up in the church, so I had somewhat of a foundation. Throughout the course of all of this, I was always falling back on it to where, if everything was going great, I wanted to be as far away from that as possible, and just live my life and be like everybody else.

But then if any hard times hit, any bad games, or I was really dealing with that anxiety, I would be in church. So I always saw it as helpful, but just not in alignment with what I wanted in life. I wanted to be more liked and to be more praised and to be like the players that were around me. I wanted to experience that. I didn’t really come to faith until I got to the NBA.

And how did that happen?

I got drafted to Orlando, and I’m getting into my new place, and I meet a guy on an elevator, and he says to me, I can tell you how to be great. I said, how? He said, you have to know Jesus. And I was like, man, I know Jesus. Me and him are close, but I wasn’t living that way. When I got to the NBA, I wanted to experience everything that the NBA had to offer. And I did.

But for something really deep inside me kind of said, I thought this would be funner or better. It’s really not all that it’s cracked up to be. At one point, being out of the league and looking at all these guys and thinking, oh, you know, they’re so amazing. I can’t wait to get there. And then being their teammate and just seeing how this life that we live really is, with the intense pressure, and how guys need to cope with everything that’s going on, it’s really difficult.

I had that on the inside of me, saying, man, I thought it would be different. I thought it would be more fulfilling. I remember going to chapel with the NBA and the chaplain said, Luke 6: 46, which says, why do you call Me Lord, Lord, and not do what I say?

It really pierced me, because I had never heard this verse before. And also, it was kind of weird to see Jesus as confrontational. Why do you call me Lord, Lord, and not do what I say? It really just struck me. I remember thinking about it in the game, and thinking about it before I went to sleep. I pretty much said to myself, it’s either I’m going to call myself a Christian, or not call myself a Christian anymore. Then I dived into Christian apologists like William Lane Craig, Frank Turek, and John Lennox, all these different guys. I started watching all types of videos.

But when I really started to believe it was through the love of Christ. The guy that I met in the elevator, I started hanging out with him, and he started to teach me about the love of God and what it all meant. And that was something that I didn’t know that I needed because I was so used to working for love and doing what I thought I needed to do to get people to love me. And the idea that Christ loved me for me and died on the cross for me, uh, set me free in a lot of ways. And I’ve been on a journey of growing in that belief.

The guy that I met in the elevator was actually a pastor, and he became my pastor. And yes, it was a really beautiful story. It’s all in the book that I wrote about the moment. And I’m sure we’ll get to that. But yes, it was really life-changing. And I’ve been on that road of Christianity and trying my best to follow Christ and growing as a man for quite a while now.

If you could summarize it in a very, very brief way, because you were obviously a Christian from the beginning. What is the biggest difference from the before and after?

I would say the biggest difference is internal. Growing in this relationship with Christ, I’ve seen how I’ve changed just as a person about what I care about, you know, what I hold dear, and what’s important to me. I was lost in that stage of trying to fit in and trying to be somebody that I thought I needed to be or that other people wanted me to be.

I found myself in a lot of situations where I was just like, why am I here? You know, why am I doing this? Why am I smoking this? Why am I at this club right now? Why am I drinking? And it was to fill a void of fulfillment, and Christ has taken that place.

I look at myself now, and it’s been a journey of growth and falling and getting back up and relying on His grace. But I’ve gotten to a place where I look at myself, and you know I don’t recognize the guy that I was before. And to me, it’s the truth of the gospel that sin has entered the world and the reason why the world is the way that it is today, all that we see, all the turmoil, all the evil that we experience is because of sin.

But God has made a sacrifice for us to be made right with Him. And in being made right with Him, then we do life with Him. And I’ve experienced doing life with Him as better than the life I was living before in almost every way. Even though there’s still difficulties, even still there are still hardships, inside of the gospel is the truth and the ability to handle it with God.

I want to explore that a lot because your faith, obviously, has been central to, I guess, some very high-profile things that you’ve done over the last several years, right? And, you know, that’s something that I’ve covered a lot on this show is talking with people who made seemingly tough decisions, but most of them will just tell me, like I didn’t have a choice, it’s just kind of what I had to do, right? But it often was connected with some very deep conviction or their faith, right? That there’s some sort of, almost as if they didn’t have a choice because their values were speaking to them so strongly.

Your pastor says, the darker the night, the brighter the light. That’s, you know, of course I get that from you, but what does that mean?

I think the way that he meant it was from a Christian standpoint. With us being Christians, it’s like, this is why we’re here, right? As the world gets darker, as the world gets more evil, as the world, you know, there’s a Bible verse that I was reading yesterday. Paul is writing and he’s saying, in the last days, people will be lovers of themselves and money. Evil will grow, and all of these different things.

You can look at the world today, and it’s like, man, it’s becoming more and more like what he laid out, selfish and all these different things. The idea is that as Christians in relationship with God and God living on the inside of us, that as the world gets darker, we get brighter in terms of attracting people that want to do life with Christ and see the difference between the way the world is, and the way that we are and the way that we live. And so, the darker the night, the brighter the light. The darkness in my life before I received Christ was really dark. But that only made Him brighter in terms of looking for somewhere to go, looking for some type of relief, and he was the answer.

If you could go back to the younger Jonathan who was struggling with anxiety, struggling with this need to be accepted, is there something you would tell him?

Yes. I grew up in the church, but I didn’t really believe until later. So I would tell him, believe now. Because that would have saved me from so many missteps and me being hurt or hurting other people. I would come back and tell him, it’s the truth, believe it. I think I would have saved myself a lot of heartache and trouble. Striving, growing, and finding my identity in Christ has been the thing that has helped me the most with the anxiety I had in my youth.

Well, so if I can jump in, right, what’s interesting to me is when I look back at my life, I think it seems like the moments that really were the darkest, when I look back at them now, they were the kind of the most valuable and I wouldn’t, you know, I wouldn’t change them for the world because, well, they brought me here and helped me figure a lot of things out, and be someone who lives up to be of service. Yes, I mean, I definitely hear that.

I think for me it’s like sometimes we don’t have to go through things and we can learn from other people’s mistakes and not make the same mistakes ourselves, so I could have saved myself a lot of trouble and heartache if I didn’t do some of the things that I did because of the position that I was in.

Well, let’s start talking a little bit about, you know, you taking a stand, yes, quite literally, you know, that’s when I first became aware of you, you know, back in the early COVID days, there was this NBA COVID bubble. Everyone was in quarantine. The whole BLM [Black Lives Matter] thing happened, right? Which many people remember. And there was this huge pressure for everyone to wear a BLM shirt. And it’s just not in the NBA. It’s all over society, right? To kneel during the national anthem in the NBA and all sorts of related things. It’s almost a lot of sports. Think back. Exactly. You didn’t, very prominently. And so just tell me about that whole situation. What happened? How did it happen?

Every time that I talk about it and I think about it, it feels so surreal because it really just was craziness, you know, being inside of the moment, seeing everything that was going on. You have the death of George Floyd and the spark of Black Lives Matter, the Black Lives Matter organization and movement, and everything like that. I wasn’t opposed to it at all. I understood where the humanity and all of it was coming from. But me being a Christian at the time, I was trying to figure out what does this mean? What is an appropriate response that honors the truth and that honors giving an answer toward progress?

I remember having conversations with some buddies early on in the movement. And I would offer some of that in terms of Christ ultimately being the thing that can bring all of us together. They said, we don’t want to talk about that right now. That’s not what this is about.

Although I understood where they were coming from, I felt like, man, this movement may not be for me. The tone and the rhetoric, some of the things that were going on. Not that black lives don’t matter, but I don’t know if I can give my allegiance to this movement, because of the way that they’re operating and speaking. I remember there were riots that were going on, and we were set to go into that bubble.

My pastor at the time was preaching a sermon on the moment that Jesus is captured by the Roman guard. One of his disciples, Peter, takes out his sword and cuts off the guy’s ear. What the psator said was, with what happened to George Floyd, we have an opportunity. If we respond in the way that’s natural in terms of our nature, which is anger, resentment, retaliation, hatred, with all these different things that will come naturally to something like that happening, we’re going to get the same result.

Jesus said, if you live by the sword, you’re going to die by the sword. He said, if we could step into this moment with love, grace, mercy, and truth, there can really be progress and mending of the black and white community, all these different things. I believe that, and it really resonated with me that I have an opportunity to love somebody who doesn’t love me or be the first one to reach across the aisle and lend a hand and see if they would give a hand back. That’s just not what I saw with what was going on, so I just hid that in my heart. I didn’t have this plan to speak up or anything like that because I didn’t know that there was going to be this moment in the bubble until we got in there.

So we got into the bubble, and a team that was playing that day decided to kneel, and now there’s this consciousness and ripple effect going through. Everybody was just going, oh shoot, if we don’t kneel now, we’re going to look like we’re not a part of the movement, and that we don’t believe that Black Lives Matter, the whole nine yards.

Now our officials call everybody into a room, all the teams, like, hey, let’s get a grip on what we’re going to do. They pretty much said, guys, whatever you’re going to do, we’ll do the same. Just let us know. Now it’s a team-only meeting, and we get into the team-only meeting, and guys are pretty much like, look, we don’t have a choice. There’s no choice here. That team already kneeled. If we don’t kneel, then it’s just going to create more chaos.

One of my teammates turned to me and said, yo Jonathan, what are you going to do? I said, fellas, I’m not going to kneel, and I’m not going to wear that t-shirt. Everybody’s like, oh my gosh, here we go. One of my teammates said, what is wrong with you? Why not?

I pretty much said, look, I see the problem. I’m not saying that I don’t see the problem. I’m not saying that I didn’t see what happened to George Floyd. I just believe that there’s a better and greater solution to not only racism but all the problems that we see in our world. Because ultimately, I believe that there are heart issues, and Jesus can change hearts because he’s changed mine.

I said, look, I can’t throw stones from a glass house. I need forgiveness every single day. It’s not saying that we bypass what people do and automatically forgive and there’s no retaliation or consequences for actions. But I pretty much said, I want to treat the situation the way that I would want to be treated if I was in it. Yes, we had that talk.

I just pretty much said, guys, look, I respect your decision to kneel. I don’t feel like you guys are doing something wrong. I respect your decision. I understand why you’re kneeling. I understand why this time is so emotional and what’s going on. I just believe that there’s a different solution. And so we broke.

I called my pastor that night and pretty much said, hey, this is the situation that’s going to happen tomorrow. I need you to know that I’m going to be— they’re going to destroy me. That’s pretty much what I said. I said, look, I’m going to lose my black card. I’m going to be a sellout. This is not going to be good. That’s pretty much what I said.

My contract extension was coming up after this season in the bubble when I was going to possibly sign a new contract. I was just trying to get him to wrap it, because he’s not social media-savvy or anything like that. So I was trying to talk him into saying, don’t do it. This is going to be huge. They’re going to drag me.

He said, Jonathan, you cannot stand for God and have God not stand for you. I was just like, dang, I got to do it. I felt, you know, that conviction that this was the right thing for me. I believe that this was God saying this was the right thing for me to do. I couldn’t just let that go.

The day came, and I just wore my jersey because I didn’t have any other warm-ups or anything other than the BLM shirt. I went out there and stood. I was kind of just praying under my breath, asking God to help me. I don’t know what I’m doing. I believe that what I’m doing is about you and for you. But I’m terrified of the repercussions and what could happen and what people are going to think. Then I said, to heck with it. This is the right thing for me to do. But for sure, I was terrified.

You’ve said that you’re an unlikely person to stand. Why?

Why would I say that I’m unlikely? Because of just my background, you know, with the anxiety and the stuff that I’ve struggled with. I would never want to be the person that is the sore thumb or goes against the grain. Even for me, I know that the conviction was there and that there had been a transformation in my heart to where I said, God, I want to trust you over myself.

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