Name: Robert Malone: Who’s Behind the Lab Leak Cover-Up? | FALLOUT
Uploaded: 2025-11-28T17:50:37.000Z
Description: Four years on, much has been revealed about the origins of SARS-CoV-2. The evidence now points definitively to a lab origin. But questions remain about the cover-up, and who was ultimately responsible.

Dr. Robert W. Malone is a physician and biochemist whose early work with mRNA vaccines was pioneering.

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In recent years, we’ve seen a crisis in our institutions, a rupturing of our public health systems, and increasing efforts to control what we say and think. Join us as we push the Overton window and dive into some of the most pressing issues of our time in “Fallout,” a new and exclusive EpochTV production.

Dr. Robert Malone is a physician and scientist, and holds numerous key patents in the fields of gene delivery, delivery formulations, and vaccines. He is the author of “Lies My Gov't Told Me: And the Better Future Coming.” Jan Jekielek is a Senior Editor with The Epoch Times and host of the show, “American Thought Leaders.”

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[FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW] Four years on, much has been revealed about the origins of SARS-CoV-2. The evidence now points definitively to a lab origin. But questions remain about the cover-up, and who was ultimately responsible.

The cover-up has had major consequences for nations across the globe. If we had known the virus did not emerge from nature, would we have approached our response to the pandemic differently? If we had known the spike was an engineered toxic protein, would we have incorporated it into the COVID-19 vaccines?

The evidence surrounding the origins of the virus and the subsequent cover-up is complex. In this episode, we dive into some fascinating vignettes from the investigative work of Sky News journalist Sharri Markson, author of “What Really Happened in Wuhan?”

FULL TRANSCRIPT
Jan Jekielek:
Hello everyone and welcome to this episode of Fallout. Robert, one of the things we’ll be covering today is the origin of the coronavirus. The lab leak theory has now been looked at and studied for years. In fact, we started tracking down its origins with our Wuhan Coronavirus documentary back in April of 2020, and so much more has been discovered since then.

Dr. Robert Malone:
What’s amazing is that there is almost a complete media blackout on this topic, even though right now it’s one of the main focuses of the Select Subcommittee on the Coronavirus Pandemic in the House of Representatives. All of this information is coming out because of these House investigations, the Freedom of Information Act, and other key articles. It has become untenable to assert that this was a natural origin virus, and yet we hear nothing about this in the major media.

Mr. Jekielek:
This is so consequential, because if we had known the nature of this virus, we could have taken that into consideration as we looked at medical options way back in early 2020.

Dr. Malone:
This is why it matters to average folks. If we had known about this at the outset, instead of having it covered up, we probably would not have engineered the modified spike protein into the vaccines and probably would have approached this completely differently in terms of medical management, early treatment, and interventions.

Mr. Jekielek:
The bottom line is that we injected 1.2 billion people with genetic code that would co-op their bodies to produce an engineered pathogenic protein.

Dr. Malone:
I agree, and this is profound. This spike protein is the product of over a decade of research and development by one of the lead investigators at the Wuhan Institute of Virology [WIV], Shi Zhengli, into how to weaponize the spike protein. We’ve caused people to manufacture an engineered, toxic protein in their body that we took directly from the military-industrial research laboratory activities performed under the oversight of the CCP and the People’s Liberation Army.

Mr. Jekielek:
Here’s a brief outline for those not following this for the past four years. We have this new unknown respiratory virus, a coronavirus, emerging from a civil/military lab, the Wuhan Institute of Virology, where a researcher, Shi Zhengli, has been studying these exact kinds of viruses, and furthermore, engineering these viruses to make them more infectious to humans. That’s the setup.

Dr. Malone:
To frame it up a little further, the players involved in this whole sordid story are fascinating. We have an improbable association between the Central Communist Party of China, the People’s Liberation Army, a bunch of branches of the U. S. government, and an informal, international consortium of scientists, physicians, and investigators that are all high profile thought leaders and have been involved in both hunting and engineering viruses for decades.

Mr. Jekielek:
Alex Washburne’s recent paper is one of the definitive pieces explaining all the pieces of evidence right now. He talks about a big cat enclosure in an area where this tiger is wandering around. You wonder to yourself, “Where is this tiger from? It must be of natural origin.”

Dr. Malone:
A natural origin tiger. That’s the perfect metaphor. You have the release of this virus in a location where there is a facility that specifically researches this type of virus and engineers it. We had this whole storyline promoted, this false narrative that in this case the tiger came from somewhere else.

Mr. Jekielek:
The Chinese Communist Party and the People’s Liberation Army are in a position where they have massive leverage over all these players that you have just described.

Dr. Malone:
They have very skillfully played the various nuances of the U.S. and international scientific community and how they assemble and associate. The CCP clearly has a sophisticated understanding of what motivates them. They have managed to manipulate that and to effectively co-opt all of these international high profile academic thought leaders to work on the CCP’s agenda of engineering biowarfare agents.

Mr. Jekielek:
Let’s start with a recent conversation that you and I had about Sharri Markson’s investigative work on this topic and specifically the role of some U.S. government players. It is fantastic to see Sharri cover this second part of what really happened in Wuhan. Her book on the origins of the coronavirus was amazing. I had her on American Thought Leaders back in 2021 with a few of these disclosures. Now, in her current interview with Bob Kadlec, it’s almost like he’s coming clean about his participation.

Dr. Malone:
I’m skeptical about Bob Kadlec coming clean. Bob Kadlec is a very experienced operator, and at a minimum, he has close contacts within the intelligence community. This interview with Sharri had to be approved from on high.

Sharri Markson:
It’s pretty extraordinary to reveal the conversations that you had with Fauci and Collins. It’s pretty extraordinary to publicly say that you did try to downplay the rhetoric around a bioweapon and a lab leak. Are you doing this interview in part because you feel guilty about that?

Dr. Robert Kadlec:
I just feel like it is an obligation that I have to say what happened. And I think to factually try to portray this not to get sympathy or forgiveness, but more to say factually, here’s what happened. This is what we tried to do. Did it work? No.

Ms. Markson:
You and Fauci in those discussions just wanted to turn the rhetoric down, is that …

Ms. Markson:
Kadlec says Fauci was worried about protecting his own reputation, and that could be why he diverted attention away from the lab leak.

Dr. Kadlec:
That would be a natural reaction of him or anybody particularly I think, for him to saying what could this do to me and to our institute as a consequence if we were found to have some culpability or some involvement in this, and I think probably made that even more acute was the fact that they didn’t have good visibility into what they were doing.

Dr. Malone:
The messaging that he’s providing to all of us basically says, “Please forgive me, I did wrong. Now, I want to come clean,” just seems a little too convenient.

Mr. Jekielek:
Except what would you expect in a situation where someone realizes they did something wrong?

Dr. Malone:
Yes, except that he has had prior interviews in publications like Vanity Fair in which he has disclosed part of the story. He did not reveal to the investigative journalist Katherine Eban or the rest of us, including the Senate Committee on whose behalf he was doing that report about what he actually knew. This interview with Sharri Markson is the first real disclosure that he, by his own admission, collaborated with Tony Fauci to suppress the narrative that this was a laboratory-created virus.

In significant part, this research was funded through EcoHealth Alliance, by the NIH [National Institutes of Health], by the U.S. government, by the State Department, and by USAID [U.S. Agency for International Development]. Now, for some reason, he’s finding it necessary to disclose at least that part of the story. I believe there is more to the story.

Mr. Jekielek:
Let’s assume your thesis here is correct. Does this mean that Dr. Anthony Fauci is going to be thrown under the bus?

Dr. Malone:
It does look like Fauci could be a convenient fall guy right now as we move into the preparation for a new administration. It appears to me like many people believe that Mr. Trump may get in and people are starting to position themselves to participate in a Trump administration. Is that what Bob’s real agenda is here? I don’t know. I do know from others having confidential information that Dr. Kadlec and his associates are very busy right now trying to modify the narrative and promote their own version of events. When I see that happening, I am distrustful. At this point, most of us are a little bit skeptical.

Mr. Jekielek:
You never know what the agenda behind the agenda is. You’re absolutely right. Another case in point is Project DEFUSE. Justin Kinney from Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory says that Project DEFUSE appears to be a blueprint for the creation of what the Epoch Times still calls the CCP virus.

Ms. Markson:
Why do many scientists consider this grant proposal a blueprint for SARS-CoV-2?

Dr. Justin Kinney:
The DEFUSE proposal really provides step-by-step instructions for how a scientist might create SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19. To me and many other scientists, the DEFUSE proposal is the smoking gun. This is not something you would get from just any virology lab working on coronaviruses. This is a very specific blueprint for making SARS-CoV-2. The fact that researchers at the Wuhan Institute of Virology explicitly proposed constructing viruses that would have all the key hallmarks of SARS-CoV-2 is just a remarkable coincidence if in fact it is a coincidence.

Dr. Malone:
Kinney is an interesting character and he’s new into this whole narrative. Sharri has brought forward this amazingly frank interview with this seasoned, hardcore, Cold Spring Harbor molecular virologist. For those that aren’t familiar, Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory, located in New York state, is one of the top molecular virology research groups in the world. Here we have a contrast from those like Kristian Anderson down at the Scripps Research Institute.

Mr. Jekielek:
Some of the quotes she pulls from Kristian’s Slack chats and emails are absolutely astonishing and quite frankly, painful.

Dr. Malone:
We now know that Kristian Anderson, from his Slack chat emails obtained by FOIA requests, was absolutely on board with this being of lab origin. Then he acknowledges in some of these quotes that Sharri is highlighting, that for political reasons, he has to try to shift the lab origin narrative. Then we have this Nature paper coming forth that advances the thesis that it was a natural origin.

Sharri provides these quotes from a key interview where the President, the Vice President, and Mr. Fauci were standing in front of the podium. A White House reporter asked a key question about whether or not this rumor about a laboratory origin of the virus had any merit. Mr. Trump defers to Mr. Fauci who goes right up to the podium and makes what in retrospect is a bald face lie.

Mr. Jekielek:
I want to roll that clip. There is no scenario where any self-respecting geneticist or microbiologist could actually believe that.

Speaker 1:
Dr. Fauci, could you address these suggestions or concerns that this virus was somehow manmade, possibly came out of a laboratory in China? You studied this virus, what are the prospects of that?

Dr. Anthony Fauci:
There was a study recently that we can make available to you where a group of highly qualified evolutionary virologists looked at the sequences there and the sequences in bats as they evolve. And the mutations that it took to get to the point where it is now is totally consistent with a jump of a species from an animal to a human.

Mr. Jekielek:
This is about proximal origins. I remember back then I called my colleague Joe Wong, a vaccinologist, asking about this paper on proximal origins in Nature journal. On the face of it, anyone with just a basic knowledge of genetics could understand that the thesis of this proximal origins paper was false.

Dr. Malone:
Yes, it was propaganda. It was propaganda put together for an intended purpose to suppress the narrative and the growing voices raising concern that this was a laboratory-engineered virus. The question was often raised, “Who cares? Who cares where it came from?”

But if we had known that this was an engineered virus from the outset, and if that information had not been suppressed, then the entire medical and research community could have been much more focused on those specific mutations, which we now know have conferred unique biologic activity on the spike protein, and probably significantly contributed to its toxicity.

That could have led us all down a totally different road in terms of preventing the disease and death associated with this. It also could have prevented us from including this particular spike protein in the vaccine that was subsequently developed. It does matter that this information was specifically hidden from the public.

Those who were advancing that theory, which was in fact based on data, that this was a laboratory origin-engineered virus were harassed, demeaned, and censored in a very ugly way. According to the interviews that Sharri is providing in this new segment, apparently it was all because Mr. Fauci didn’t want the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases [NIAID], his institute within the NIH, to suffer political damage from its role in having funded and participated in the creation of this virus.

Mr. Jekielek:
Back in April of 2020, we produced a very popular documentary, “Tracking Down the Origin of the Wuhan Coronavirus,” that was viewed 100 million times, and it has aged very well. But at the time, we did not know about the U.S. government involvement, and that would have been helpful. This coverup was not driven by an interest in the public good, but instead by an interest in saving people’s reputations.

Dr. Malone:
I agree. What we have here is a group of government bureaucrats under risk that their budgets and their agencies and their associates would be held accountable for the development and release of this pathogen that has damaged economies and lives throughout the world, and we see their frantic efforts to cover up that fact.

Another big reveal in this new piece by Sharri is the role of Adrienne Keen, who works at the Office of the Director of National Intelligence [ODNI]. In addition to working for ODNI, she was also working for the WHO at the same time and had not disclosed this. Now, ODNI has released a statement saying that what she did was entirely within their rules and regulations.

But clearly, as was revealed by people in Sharri’s interview, there appears to be a conflict of interest. Now, this is actually new information. What I hear is that Adrienne has been intimately involved in the development of the white sheet coverup from the Director of National Intelligence, which says that this is a natural origin virus, and is now in a third revision.

She has been the key person driving that white sheet statement, and yet she has these relationships and is a contributor to the longstanding effort through ODNI to suppress the laboratory origin thesis. This scenario is still ongoing.

Mr. Jekielek:
This is the part that I am still stunned by. Back in 2020, we didn’t imagine when we were producing this documentary that gain-of-function research could be used for bioweapons research.

Dr. Malone:
It’s called dual function.

Mr. Jekielek:
Yes. Basically, we have the U.S. government funding this. There’s a 100 percent chance that the PLA [People’s Liberation Army] is involved in the Wuhan Institute of Virology. They’re actually funding bioweapons research by the CCP, which has no moral restrictions on what it may do with the weapons in its hands. It’s a level of credulity that the American side and NIH has towards these scientists.

Dr. Malone:
To your point, one of the other reveals in Sharri’s piece which has been speculated about before is that Mr. Ben Hu, one of the key technicians at the Wuhan Institute of Virology, appears to have been patient zero. He and some of his other technician colleagues appear to have been the initial persons infected in October, consistent with the lab leak hypothesis. Then Shi Zhengli, the infamous bat lady appears.

The current thesis is that she may have actually been in a second wave of infection, because she disappeared from WIV for about three weeks beginning in November. We are now researching the chain of events that occurred there, including the scientist who was involved in beginning vaccine research around October of 2019, and then somehow disappeared. The preponderance of evidence is that he was assassinated by the People’s Liberation Army for having created this SARS‑CoV‑2 virus.

Mr. Jekielek:
We’re going to have to move on from this topic of what really happened in Wuhan. I’ve had a theory as to why the American government was at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. Some years back, the CIA essentially lost all its eyes in China. Basically, its network was exposed, and many people were murdered in cold blood.

Dr. Malone:
And their families were tortured.

Mr. Jekielek:
It was a huge loss for American intelligence when that network was exposed. My theory was this was one way they could get eyes on bioweapons research, which was of course happening at the Wuhan Institute of Virology.

Dr. Malone:
I’ve had this verified independently, this thesis that essentially this was a reaction to the CIA losing its human intelligence capacity in the bioweapons area within China a number of years ago. As I said, I’ve had this independently verified through three different sources, including the Defense Threat Reduction Agency long ago in 2021.

I asked a colleague of mine that I was mentoring, “Can you find out whether this branch of the DOD, the Defense Threat Reduction Agency, had any role in funding the Wuhan Institute of Virology?” The answer that came back was, “Absolutely, we did it as part of our program to make sure that Chinese scientists, like we had once done with the former USSR nuclear weapons specialists, would not engage in nefarious activities.”

Now, this is grossly naive. Of course, you and The Epoch Times absolutely understand that the idea that you would be able to somehow subvert the CCP through providing some capital and access to technology through EcoHealth Alliance is a fallacy. It is, at best, grossly naive. I think it’s probably a cover story. But the desire of the CIA to get access to knowledge about the activities of the CCP and the People’s Liberation Army in the area of bioweapons research appears to be central to what transpired here.

The other thing that’s central is the role of EcoHealth Alliance and Peter Daszak. That is a story that has yet to be told, and a good case can be made that Tony Fauci was collateral roadkill in the middle of this. He was a player, and he certainly was central in the coverup. But was he really the driver behind the whole logic of the gain-of-function research that’s revealed in this infamous proposal that was grabbed off of the DARPA servers? That proposal was subsequently funded by Tony Fauci’s group with very little oversight, whereas DARPA [Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency] had refused to fund it.

That is now all referred to as a roadmap by the researcher from Cold Spring Harbor for what had transpired here, and it appears to have been a foreshadowing. As revealed in Sharri Markson’s interviews, it may have been research that had already been completed at the time the proposal was submitted.

Mr. Jekielek:
Let’s shift now and talk about healthy living.

Mr. Jekielek:
In February, 2023, we were at a Brownstone Institute retreat and a few folks were giving some presentations on their new research and discoveries. Dr. Paul Marik talked about berberine having remarkable properties for dealing with type 2 diabetes. I had never heard of this.

Dr. Malone:
Nor had I. It was the beginning of Paul’s journey that’s covered in his new monograph on cancer that rethinks the whole pharmaceutical medical industrial complex and the need to look back at the knowledge that has been gained over generations on the use of nutraceuticals and natural plant products.

Mr. Jekielek:
I want to talk about berberine. In his monograph on cancer he has looked at 1,400 different papers. There are preventative and treatment measures for cancer that most of us have never heard of, and this is all in the peer-reviewed, scientific literature that he has looked at. We should dive deeper on this in a future episode. Vitamin D comes up at the top of the list for cancer, much as it does for Covid too.

Dr. Malone:
Absolutely, because it has to do with the immune system. Based on what’s coming out in the literature, berberine also seems to have immune supportive activity that probably underlies a lot of these amazing activities. But what we’re really talking about is diving back into the pre-Rockefeller, pre-organic chemistry based pharmaceutical pharmacopeia and looking at what previous generations of humans have identified.

There is a remarkable parallel with the natural treatments that are common in places in Southeast Asia, India, and China. These traditional pharmaceutical products that are derived from plants and other sources that you can’t make any profit on, because you can’t patent them.

Mr. Jekielek:
We’ve been told either directly or indirectly they are probably snake oil.

Dr. Malone:
Yes. Everybody is now revisiting the literature and revisiting what we knew about medicine and pharmaceuticals. People are looking back at these natural products as part of integrative medicine in response to what we have learned about the pharmaceutical industry.

Mr. Jekielek:
Let’s talk about berberine. I remember Paul saying, “It is absolutely astonishing what this bioactive plant compound can do.”

Dr. Malone:
Yes. This is a derivative from a little orange fruit that you can find on small bushes that have been used by humans for a variety of medical purposes for years and years. Only recently is it being treated as a real entity and investigated like you would investigate classical pharmaceuticals. I’d like to read from a 2018, peer-reviewed article from Frontiers in Pharmacology that talks about berberine and its pharmaceutical properties that have been identified.

The title of this article is, “Berberine: Botanical Occurrence, Traditional Uses, Extraction Methods and Relevance in Cardiovascular, Metabolic, Hepatic and Renal Disorders.” Renal is kidneys, hepatic is your liver. Metabolic is your body’s overall ability to metabolize things that you take in as food. Cardiovascular relates to heart health and vascular health. Here’s the introduction.

“Berberine-containing plants have been traditionally used in different parts of the world for the treatment of inflammatory disorders,” like what we were just talking about, the role of inflammation and vitamin D. Inflammation seems to be central to cancer and so many other diseases of humans. “Treatment of inflammatory disorders, skin diseases, wound healing, reducing fevers, afflictions of eyes, treatment of tumors, digestive and respiratory diseases, and microbial pathologies.

It seems amazing that any natural product would have this broad spectrum of potential activities, but berberine does and it’s widely available. You can buy it from a variety of different sources. It’s important to look for sources that are clean and from good, highly-recommended distributors. I myself use berberine. I’m not advising our listeners about their medical care, but as Paul pointed out, the properties of berberine are amazing.

Mr. Jekielek:
If I may ask, what are you using it for?

Dr. Malone:
You’ll recall from my story with my SARS‑CoV‑2 infection in February of 2020, and then my post-vaccination syndrome, I’ve had a lot of health problems that have been attributed to this virus and to the vaccine, including cardiovascular problems, blood pressure problems, and heart rate problems. Underlying all that is a pre-diabetic syndrome. It turns out that berberine addresses all of these things at the same time.

I’m not taking it as an exclusive treatment, but it’s yet another item in my portfolio that I take daily to address the damage I’ve experienced and also my need to lose weight. It also helps with controlling my blood pressure, my blood sugar, my cholesterol balance, and my lipid profile. It’s amazing that this one natural product has all these properties, but as Paul shared with us, that is the case.

Of course, you can’t make any profit off of this. No part of it is patentable. It’s not marketed by any of the big pharmaceutical industry corporations, but you can buy it in a variety of healthcare and nutraceutical stores. It’s one of the go-tos for many people in the integrative medicine space.

Mr. Jekielek:
Let’s talk about next week’s episode, which I’m excited to talk about. You received a phone call from a man named Callahan, a CIA operative in China, right at the beginning of the pandemic, asking you to spin up your team.

Dr. Malone:
Yes, it’s significant, because the official party line is that the United States didn’t have anybody in Wuhan at the time. I was directly told that I should shut up about Callahan. But now we know from Sharri’s piece that at the time there were at least 14 U.S. diplomats actively involved there when this all went down.

Mr. Jekielek:
Robert, I am looking forward to talking about that, and we’ll see you next time.

This interview has been edited for clarity and brevity.

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Siyamak Khorrami has been the general manager and chief editor of the Southern California edition of The Epoch Times since 2017. He is also the host of the “California Insider” show, which showcases leaders and professionals across the state with inside information about trending topics and critical issues in California.

Siyamak Khorrami

California, as the wealthiest and most populated state in the nation, carries many leading roles in policy making, economic growth, cultural influences and technology development. California Insider, hosted by Siyamak Khorrami with The Epoch Times Southern California, showcases leaders and professionals across the state with inside information about trending topics and critical issues. Our mission is to inform California residents through the experiences and knowledge of our guests. 