Jan Jekielek is a senior editor with The Epoch Times, host of the show “American Thought Leaders” and co-host of “FALLOUT” with Dr. Robert Malone and “Kash’s Corner” with Kash Patel. Jan’s career has spanned academia, international human rights work, and now for almost two decades, media. He has interviewed nearly a thousand thought leaders on camera, and specializes in long-form discussions challenging the grand narratives of our time. He’s also an award-winning documentary filmmaker, producing “The Unseen Crisis: Vaccine Stories You Were Never Told,” “DeSantis: Florida vs. Lockdowns,” and “Finding Manny.”

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[RUSH TRANSCRIPT BELOW] HHS Secretary Robert F. Kennedy recently unveiled a new food pyramid and dietary guidelines for Americans that emphasize high-quality protein, dairy, healthy fats, vegetables, and fruits. Whole grains are downgraded, and processed foods and added sugars are discouraged.

“We’ve been consuming this ultra-processed food, which I call human pet food,” says Dr. Shawn Baker. A former orthopedic surgeon and world champion athlete, he’s the author of “The Carnivore Diet” and co-founder of the online clinic Revero.

“A lot of our food has become very similar to recreational drugs in the way we use and abuse them,” he says.

Eating a lot of addictive, ultra-processed food—high in carbs, sugars, and seed oils—drives inflammation and can lead to obesity, diabetes, arthritis, cardiovascular problems, gut malfunction, depression, and cancers, he explains.

In our in-depth interview, he explains how and why the adoption of low-carb, high-fat diets reduces inflammation and can even reverse chronic diseases such as diabetes and cardiometabolic disease.

There is even significant evidence that such diets can be used therapeutically for neurological and mental health issues, he says.

One of those low-carb, high-fat diets is the ketogenic diet. But what happens when you take keto one step further and go on the carnivore diet?

“Carnivore is basically a diet consisting primarily of animal products. So it would be meat. It would be fish. It would be eggs. It would be dairy products,” he says. This means no plant products at all.

The carnivore diet is not for everyone, but many people suffering from debilitating autoimmune diseases have healed themselves with such a diet, he says. Mikhaila Peterson has famously documented her transformative experience on an even more restricted version of this diet called the “lion diet.”

In our in-depth interview, we discuss many more questions regarding food as medicine and the benefits of a protein-heavy diet, including:

– Why people on ketogenic or carnivore diets experience something called ‘keto calm’ or ‘zero carb zen.’
– Why going on the carnivore diet does not harm your nutritional intake, contrary to what many may think.
– Why such diets can help reverse inflammatory bowel disease, Tourette syndrome, and hypermobility, also known as Ehlers-Danlos syndrome.

It’s time for Americans to stop simply relying on America’s “disease management system” of drugs and pharmaceuticals, he argues, and instead take their health into their own hands.

Views expressed in this video are opinions of the host and the guest, and do not necessarily reflect the views of  NTD.

RUSH TRANSCRIPT
Jan Jekielek:

Shawn Baker, such a pleasure to have you on American Thought Leaders.

Hey, it’s a wonderful, wonderful opportunity. Thanks for having me.

And it’s an amazing time, actually. The food pyramid and the dietary guidelines have been updated for the first time in, really, almost a long time, perhaps a little bit too long. But they’ve changed, and I think they’ve changed in a way that might actually work for you. Why don’t you tell me about that?

Yes, as you guys know, RFK Jr. came in and he said he’s going to flip the food pyramid upside down. And you know, it’s interesting when you look at the graphic that they submitted; you see that upside-down pyramid that was done very intentionally. I believe RFK Jr. has said he has been on a carnivore diet more or less for quite a while now. He’s really happy with that.

And as you read that, you know, in English we read left to right, top to bottom. The first thing you come to on that food pyramid now is a big old ribeye steak. And it’s not just any steak; it’s actually a ribeye steak, which I thought was quite intentional. And, you know, the main focus was to shift the greater emphasis on protein, and you know, we’ve demonized red meat in particular over the last really half century. And so I think we’ve kind of shifted away from that.

Because it’s an acknowledgment that animal fat is actually not what’s killing us, as we’ve been told for many, many years. We hear this sort of relationship between saturated fat and cholesterol and heart disease. And there are a couple of leaps that are being made that don’t actually show endpoints. When we look at randomized control trials on red meat, reducing red meat, increasing red meat, those don’t show any real increase in cardiovascular disease.

So it’s all these sort of intermediary biomarkers that they sort of make this argument on or epidemiologic data, which is unfortunately what most of nutrition science is composed of, which is just weak data, unfortunately. As someone who has a science background, you know, there’s pure sciences: math, physics, and so on and so forth. And then there’s more of the social science and nutrition science, which some people would say is almost a pseudoscience in many ways.

Tell me a little bit about this; you know, I take it you’ve looked through the dietary guidelines in some detail, and of course, we know that meats and saturated fats are up. But the biggest deal is, as they say, “eat real food” is the slogan, right? How does that grab you?

I had commented several years ago because every five years we update the nutritional guidelines, and there are hundreds of page-long documents, and they have these really sort of somewhat arbitrary rules that they go by. It’s based on the science they think they have. And no one really goes to the grocery store carrying a, you know, dietary guidelines pack with them, and no one’s going to continue to do that. I had commented several years ago that I think we should probably align our dietary guidelines with something like what Brazil had.

If you look at Brazil’s dietary guidelines, it’s very similar to what we have now. It says cook at home, avoid, you know, hyper-processed, ultra-processed food, surround yourself with people you love, you know, cook in a family environment, you know, don’t eat at restaurants as much, and avoid some of the marketing. And I think that it’s very basic. It’s very generalized. It’s not very specific, but I think that’s all we really need. I don’t think we need these rigid, you know, rules, which, unfortunately, drive our policy, you know, policy in the school systems; anything that takes federal money that feeds people has to abide by. And so I think the overall message of let’s just stop eating the, as I like to call it, human pet food. So much of the grocery store really just reminds me of that.

Remember when all these fake meats came out, like Beyond Meat? If you’ve seen their stock price, it went from $2.50 down to below $1 now. And if you look at the ingredients, it’s hard to distinguish that from dog food. It really is when you put the ingredients side by side. And so we’ve been consuming, you know, this ultra-processed food, which, again, I call human pet food; it acts kind of like a recreational drug. And I think that’s really what it is.

A lot of our food has become very similar to recreational drugs in the way we use them. And that’s something that I think getting away from that is undoubtedly going to, you know, assuming people will do it. Now, again, the guidelines out there, now the execution—that’s the hard part. How do we execute this? And you probably know here in D.C. there’s a lot of stuff that slows the process down.

Sure. And you know, well, that something you mentioned is really interesting because it’s one thing, you know, you can have this food pyramid, and you can look at it and say, roughly, I know what I should do according to these guidelines. That’s one thing. But the letter, the small details all impact, you know, for example, the massive amounts of funding that go towards school lunches, and so forth, and what that will be. To me, in a way, I wonder, like, that almost feels like the biggest game changer.

Because I remember looking at, you know, maybe years ago, looking at some of the hospital food. I was like, I can’t believe they give this to people. I mean, I didn’t even think about this stuff in detail. But I was like, really? This is what they give at a hospital? Shouldn’t it be like good food? You know, because it’s probably like nutrition, to have nutrition in it or something like that, you know. So there’s this seemingly profound shift that should happen, right? Or like, you tell me what you think.

Again, that food upside-down food pyramid is a consumer-facing document. The 10-page letter that was, you know, signed by Secretary Rollins and Secretary Kennedy basically said this is how we think you should eat in general terms, and that’s what hopefully the average American will do, and they’ll feed their family that way. Now, the details of the guidelines, you know, really reduced added sugar. They cut back on the grain recommendations. They still leave a 10 percent saturated fat cap, which a lot of people in the low carb keto sort of stratosphere are kind of grumbling about a little bit.

But overall, I think, you know, the changes are good if, again, the consumer population will actually adopt those. That’s always a challenge, you know. Will people actually eat that? Because people argued before, hey, the guidelines before were reasonable, but no one would eat that way.

But I think folks like Nina Teicholz have shown that the food industry has sort of tailored their products to meet the old guidelines. Back in 1990, we had 11 servings of grain at the bottom. That’s the old food pyramid that everybody is talking about. It obviously shifted into MyPlate over the intervening years. But there has been a real de-emphasis of grain and a re-emphasis of meat, milk, eggs, and so on and so forth, seafood. So I think that’s an overall good, a very good shift.

And there’s something you mentioned about food being like a recreational drug. Do you mean by that that food has been intentionally made addictive? And what do you know about that? Actually, I’ve heard about this, but I’ve never really talked about it with anyone.

A lot of people know that, for instance, when the tobacco companies were broken up, back you know R.J. Reynolds and some of the other big companies, you know, when we started to push back on cigarettes, a lot of those companies ended up buying some of these food companies. Nabisco and some of the other ones were bought by these big tobacco companies, and I actually had a woman who worked for one of those companies as a food scientist.

She was a chemist, and she said her job was literally to design food to be as addictive as possible, and she had a tremendous amount of guilt about that. She wanted to come work for our company because she just felt so guilty about the fact that she was in part responsible for addicting millions of us to this hyperpalatable damaging food, which is what it’s done.

It just sounds so unbelievable. But the bottom line is it has to be processed for you to be able to create that scenario, right, to make it addictive.

Yes, there was a fellow by the name of Moskowitz back in the, I think, late 70s, early 80s, who described something called the bliss point of food. And so it was a special combination of salt, sugar, and fat that, if you mix it together to a certain degree, was irresistible for people.

Maybe you can make a steak addictive then.

It’s hard to get the sweet, sweet aspect in a steak. But yes, I would say I probably suffer from a steak addiction. I would admit that.

Yes, and you know, you mentioned ketosis. Why don’t you explain to me how a keto diet works? Like how is that, and what’s actually happening, and how that’s different from normal?

Keto diets have been used therapeutically since the 1920s. They were first shown to have significant impacts on epileptics, and so you may be familiar with some of the origins of that story. There’s something called the Charlie Foundation that was talking about that significantly.

You know, fat, diabetes, autism, I mean a whole range of impacts.

Yes, and this is some of the great work that’s being done by the Baszucki Group, funding a lot of the scientific research around this. We’re showing that ketogenic diets have been shown to significantly help with depression, significantly help with anxiety, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, obviously epilepsy, ADHD, and we’re seeing some benefits in patients with dementia, so it has tremendous beneficial cognitive effects.

Five years ago if you said that, people thought you were nuts because how can a diet impact my childhood trauma or whatever, whatever the issue might’ve been. But our brain is an organ just like our liver is, just like our heart is, and it is clearly influenced by what we put in, what we feed it.

Babies are born in a ketogenic state. This is sort of our natural state when we’re born. You know, obviously, humans are omnivores. I write in my book, The Carnivore Diet, humans are carnivores. There are other people out there making the argument that humans are carnivores. I approach it as this is a therapeutic tool that is incredibly beneficial, and it helps for resetting things.But as far as what being in ketosis does, it regulates; we have a more steady sense of energy.

You may have noticed that on a ketogenic diet, you don’t have these ups and downs and the crashes. And I think that impacts our mood ability. If we’re more stable when we’re kind of evened out, it’s kind of a lot of people call it a keto calm or some people call it zero carb zen, where they’re just kind of happy and chilled out; they’re not like, you know, bouncing around so much. There are impacts on fat metabolism. We know that being in ketosis sort of interacts with something called hormone-sensitive lipase to promote fat metabolism. So there are clear benefits to ketosis for many, many people.

Yes, and I mean, the bottom line is you’re burning fat because there’s no carbs to burn, and that’s the next thing that’s burning.

Basically, that’s kind of the hierarchy. When we start to get low on stored sugar in the form of glycogen or blood glucose, ketones become more useful. So we always have some glucose in our body. We always have some ketones. We always have some free fatty acids. We always have some lactate floating around as different sorts of energy substrates that we can metabolize. And that just shifts in one direction or the other.

And the question is, what is optimal for humans? I think that’s a debate that many people have. There are a lot of people that like carbohydrates. And for a lot of people, and I’m not here to tell you that everybody needs to be on a carnivore diet, because I don’t, I don’t, I don’t agree with that. But I do think that many people, more people than you think, would benefit from it. And it’s educational. If you do it for three months, you will learn a heck of a lot about your body. You’ll learn about how your body interacts with what foods cause problems. You know, my background is in orthopedic surgery.

So I spent years, you know, replacing people’s knees and doing trauma surgery and hips and shoulder scopes, knee scopes. And one thing that I remember a few people telling me is that, you know, hey, doc, whenever I eat bread, my knee hurts. And I thought they were nuts. I just thought they were some crazy person, whatever. Well, let me look at your MRI, right? But then years after years of doing this, one of the most common things I see, and you know, as I’m about to turn 60, and so I’m running, jumping, doing all these athletic activities because my knees don’t hurt anymore. My back doesn’t hurt. And that is in large part impacted by the foods I eat.

So the foods we consume, you know, a lot of people, they’ll wake up the next morning with a sore shoulder or a sore neck and they’ll think they slept on it wrong. But maybe it was the chocolate cake you had last night. So if you start thinking about it that way, you’ll start to discover that food impacts you in ways you would never even attribute to that. And most physicians are unaware because we have no training on that.

You know, the thing that I know you for and probably millions of people know you for is the carnivore diet. And I’m quite interested. I myself generally do keto. I had a few years recently where I stopped doing keto. I can tell you that was a bad idea. I’m back to doing keto again. And I’m pretty, when I do it, it’s great. It’s simple. It’s not a lot of rules. You just keep the carbs down, whatever you do. And once in a while, you can get some carbs. That’s fine. But mostly keep them down, you know, at a very, very low level. Now, but carnivore seems to be like a whole, like another step up. And I, so in a way, I want you to convince me, I want you to convince me here that I should try carnivore.

As I said, you know, my background as a physician, my goal is to take people who are unhealthy and make them healthier. And I think that is something that we’re able to do through diets like a carnivore diet. We use ketogenic diets as well, but certainly for people who struggle with following routines, who struggle with complexity, counting macros, and trying to figure out if something hits the right ratios.

Yes, that’s me, that’s me to the teeth.

So very much it simplifies it, and you mentioned, as your background in evolutionary biology, that a lot of people argue that a ketogenic state was essential to survival for a long period of time while humans were dealing with ice age conditions, particularly throughout southern Europe and other parts. The only way to really reach a ketogenic state, given the resources they had at that time, would probably be from hunting animals. I don’t think there are a lot of mangoes and things like that growing in Europe during the ice age; I think most people would agree with that.

So it is something that a lot of people, like I said, people who have struggled with food addiction—probably some people estimate about 14 percent of the population, which kind of runs parallel to alcoholism—struggle with what we would consider food addiction. And I think it’s a real, real issue. A lot of people would readily admit that they have problems with addiction to types of food.

How do you define that entirely? Like, because obviously, you have to eat, right? And so how much liking of eating makes it addiction?

If we look at just addiction in general, what defines an addiction? It’s like, are we addicted to breathing? Well, yes, we have to do it. But I think if we knowingly are harming ourselves—and I think most of us know that if I sit down and eat chocolate chip cookies all day, it’s not going to do anything good for me—but I can’t stop it. I’m compelled to do it because the flavor is so overwhelmingly rewarding, you know, it gives me this sort of reward system. So I think in the face of the fact that you are gaining weight, becoming inflamed, developing chronic diseases, and you continue to do that, to me, that represents, you know, an addiction. So I think that’s how we define it with food.

And there are people that will literally say, well, it’s not like they’re, you know, they’re out in the back alley, prostituting themselves out for a hit of sugar. It doesn’t happen. But I will tell you, what do you think, if we made sugar illegal and we made it exorbitantly expensive, and if we made it, you know, shunned by society like we do with heroin or something else like that, or cocaine, you probably would have people that would do that, I am sure.

No, I mean, I know because I think I have a bit of that kind of reaction to sugar and frankly other things. As you’re telling me about this, I’m kind of wondering myself, am I a food addict? I’m not sure. Maybe with something like those really nicely roasted almonds, I can do some serious damage to a bag of those. And not in a good way. I mean, too much, right?

Yes. Like I said, we’ve designed food to be very addictive. That was done expressly, intently, and it’s been very effective. I read a study a few years ago about the fact that, you know, a lot of it was, I think it was, it might have been millennials, might have been Gen Z folks, were eating less and less breakfast cereals. And we’re thinking, well, that’s probably a good thing because it’s just a bunch of sugary garbage most of the time.

But the reason was not because they were concerned about their health. The reason was that it was too much work because they had to actually rinse a bowl and, you know, pour it in a dish where they, what they want is something they can rip a package open, shove it in their mouth, and throw it away. And so we’ve gotten to the point where the convenience of food has also become such a problem for us.

Right. Absolutely. I think, and I, you know, that’s one reason why I like meat sticks so much, because I can just have them in my bag, right? When I’m, I’m one of these people that gets focused, works, you know, and then eight hours can pass and, you know, the meat sticks are what does it?

Essentially, the meat sticks are actually becoming one of the more popular snack food items. They’re growing in one of the most rapidly growing markets right now for that. So that’s good news in my view.

Okay, good to hear that. And I always try to get the grass-fed, you know, sort of, I don’t know if it’s organic every time. But listen, so, okay, carnivore diet. It’s not just red meat. Can you just give me a picture of how it works broadly? I know that people should, you know, do this in consultation with a professional and all this stuff, but how does it look like?

Prior to the carnivore diet being called the carnivore diet, I was a guy that popularized that name when I wrote the book back, you know, seven or eight years ago. Before it was called a zero-carb diet, it was basically people avoiding all carbohydrates. It kind of was a sort of a heretical outcast from the keto group. They were kind of kicked out of keto because they were too extreme, right? I ended up listening to some of these people on social media, and I thought they were absolutely crazy. I said, you guys are crazy, this is nuts! They said, aren’t you going to get scurvy? What about  fiber?

So basically, it is a diet consisting primarily of just animal products. It would be meat, it would be fish, it would be eggs, it would be dairy products, it would be, you know, anything that sort of comes from an animal for the most part. Most people tend to gravitate towards red meat, probably because it tends to have a little more fat. So when you remove all the carbohydrates from your diet, you need energy. You need a source of energy. If you just try to eat lean protein, like if you had a diet where it was just pure chicken breast and things like that, you would last about a week on that, and then you would be starving. So the red meat seems to fill that niche for getting enough fat.

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